David Cameron: "Multiculturalism has failed"

[David Votoupal]

Not quite sure what you mean by 'demographic danger'? Danger of being swamped by outsiders?

The impending demographic collapse in Europe and Asia, which dates back to the fuzzy luvvy policies of the 60s if we're to be brutally honest.

As for terrorist threats, much of this in Europe or Asia comes from ethnonationalist separatists within the state: ETA, the IRA, Chechens in Russia, Uighurs in China, Muslims in southern Thailand, etc. They are fighting for an ethnic nationalist cause that runs counter to a competing nationalism. The State implementing tougher 'nationalist' policies will only INCREASE terrorism in these cases.

I would argue the threat of terror in this country countered by drastic policies, and we should not care what the international community thinks.

Should ethnic nationalism be given precedence over nationalism based on other principles (French nationalism, for example, based on liberte, egalite, fraternite - or American nationalism based on similar political ideals)?

"French nationalism" can mean many things. And the ideas that came out of the French Revolution are ironic to me considering the First Republic was the inventor of state terrorism, and paved the way for Communist and Nazi ideologies and their use of state violence.

[Old Gregg]

To show you how many complex factors are there in ethnicity and cultural groups, the Acadians and Franco-Ontarians are quite distinct from Quebecers, despite sharing a lot of the same heritage and language. But these two have no desire for a separate province- they're granted full recognition of their language and culture within Ontario and the Maritime provinces.

Multiculturalism at work, then! Hooray!

It is a stark situation to Quebec, where the exodus of its Anglo population since 1976 (mostly around Montreal, but border areas around Ottawa are heavily mixed on both sides) contributed to its economic decline. Quebec's pursuance of a monolingual policy borders on discriminatory, but no other province in Canada would ever get away with this.

So, your argument is that the Quebecois ethnic, cultural & linguistic nationalism is discriminatory and is harming social relations within the province. I see...

I might be shockingly ethnocentric and Eurocentric to you but you will never ever force me to change that.

Don't ever change for me DV, debate is a good thing! I have these conversations with my Croatian in-laws all the time..

Some countries have the right idea that only one culture and language is to be promoted above all else, and people living there have to accept that. Franco did that in Spain, and it was definitely wrong for him to repress non-Spanish languages and cultures, but it is what is needed in Australia.

This is the main question that your argument begs - when is it right and when is it wrong to privilege a certain ethnic/cultural group? Why is it right to do that in Australia now, whereas in the past it was fine to bring in immigrants who didn't speak a word of English, made their own wine and ate funny smelling salami?

[David Votoupal]

So, your argument is that the Quebecois ethnic, cultural & linguistic nationalism is discriminatory and is harming social relations within the province. I see...

Well what would happen if any other province tried this, or any other country for that matter? Oh and remember too that African countries encourage people to speak English and French as a way of getting around their differences.

This is the main question that your argument begs - when is it right and when is it wrong to privilege a certain ethnic/cultural group? Why is it right to do that in Australia now, whereas in the past it was fine to bring in immigrants who didn't speak a word of English, made their own wine and ate funny smelling salami?

Well those people were, for most part, unfailingly hard-working and expected no favours. And part of our success as a nation is that its majority population are unfailingly hard-working and don't expect to skim off the system like some.

There are many things I loathe about our contemporary culture and society, which I find to be materialistic, egocentric and individualistic to the point of nihilism. The lack of humility and decency shown by "ordinary" people which I will include the way people conduct themselves on forums such as this, and have mistreated me for instance, bears witness to the sort of rotten generation that exists in this country.

[Agostinho]

There are many things I loathe about our contemporary culture and society, which I find to be materialistic, egocentric and individualistic to the point of nihilism. The lack of humility and decency shown by "ordinary" people which I will include the way people conduct themselves on forums such as this, and have mistreated me for instance, bears witness to the sort of rotten generation that exists in this country.

It's a bit misguided to use an internet forum as an example of how an entire generation conducts themselves.

Having said that, I find many people on here to be intelligent, articulate, compassionate people. Not all obviously, but then you can't always taint everyone with the same brush.

[Old Gregg]

Well what would happen if any other province tried this, or any other country for that matter?

They would be quite rightly denounced for pandering to the nationalistic xenophobes among their constituency. As should the Quebec provincial government.

Well those people were, for most part, unfailingly hard-working and expected no favours.

With the implication that non-European migrants are lazy parasites that want everything handed to them on a silver plate? Way to generalize... especially as in the post-WWII era most migrants were able to walk into a job as there was a huge labour shortage then.

Anyway, the Greeks, Italians etc generally didn't 'assimilate' immediately - they associated with their countrymen at social clubs, sports clubs, spoke their language at home and often at work, played wogball rather than eggball, grew their own food, went to their own churches.. that's the very essence of multiculturalism that you are arguing so fervently against, isn't it?

And part of our success as a nation is that its majority population are unfailingly hard-working and don't expect to skim off the system like some.

Just like most people, in most parts of the world. Human nature is the same the world over.
As for 'majority population' not skimming from the system like those damn immigrants do, a trip down to your nearest outer-suburban Centrelink should change your opinions.. (apologies for the generalisation)

There are many things I loathe about our contemporary culture and society, which I find to be materialistic, egocentric and individualistic to the point of nihilism.

Product of the times - rampant capitalism, not multicultural social policy.

[Old Gregg]

There are many things I loathe about our contemporary culture and society, which I find to be materialistic, egocentric and individualistic to the point of nihilism. The lack of humility and decency shown by "ordinary" people which I will include the way people conduct themselves on forums such as this, and have mistreated me for instance, bears witness to the sort of rotten generation that exists in this country.

It's a bit misguided to use an internet forum as an example of how an entire generation conducts themselves.

Having said that, I find many people on here to be intelligent, articulate, compassionate people. Not all obviously, but then you can't always taint everyone with the same brush.

True that.

Internet forums are also a field for social interaction that is quite new - it's much more impersonal than communication was in the past. You can hide behind a constructed 'profile' and basically say what you want to people you may never have met face to face. It's hard to know whether people would have been more polite on the internet in previous times, but I doubt it.

[David Votoupal]

With the implication that non-European migrants are lazy parasites that want everything handed to them on a silver plate? Way to generalize... especially as in the post-WWII era most migrants were able to walk into a job as there was a huge labour shortage then.

As for 'majority population' not skimming from the system like those damn immigrants do, a trip down to your nearest outer-suburban Centrelink should change your opinions.. (apologies for the generalisation)

Well I deal with Centrelink quite regularly and see a wide range of people there. But yeah, too many expect a free ride here or want to laze around on the beach. That's because our society makes it too easy for people to lead such lifestyles and take risks with their life, or have no personal responsibility.

I think you'll find that British people, for instance, are as unfailingly hard-working as you can get.

[Agostinho]

Well I deal with Centrelink quite regularly and see a wide range of people there.

What is that supposed to mean, exactly?

I think you'll find that British people, for instance, are as unfailingly hard-working as you can get.

Have you ever been to Britain?

[David Votoupal]

There are many things I loathe about our contemporary culture and society, which I find to be materialistic, egocentric and individualistic to the point of nihilism. The lack of humility and decency shown by "ordinary" people which I will include the way people conduct themselves on forums such as this, and have mistreated me for instance, bears witness to the sort of rotten generation that exists in this country.

It's a bit misguided to use an internet forum as an example of how an entire generation conducts themselves.

Having said that, I find many people on here to be intelligent, articulate, compassionate people. Not all obviously, but then you can't always taint everyone with the same brush.

I find people here who, frankly, lack any sense of sensitivity or humility and always find reason to abuse or wind up somebody else. Maybe I should just accept I won't ever be accepted by people here because of the arrogant cliques who have always had it in for me from day one.

Guess what- I have to tend to animals, put other people before myself, which is as close to a model citizen you can get.

One thing that nearly killed my enthusiasm for football in this country is this and other football forums where a horrendous culture exists. Which frankly I don't see elsewhere. So my own anger was always justified as long as certain people- and I'd love to call out their names- have it in for me here.

Learn to be humble people for once, not stuck-up arrogant scrotes.

[David Votoupal]

True that.

Internet forums are also a field for social interaction that is quite new - it's much more impersonal than communication was in the past. You can hide behind a constructed 'profile' and basically say what you want to people you may never have met face to face. It's hard to know whether people would have been more polite on the internet in previous times, but I doubt it.

I'm thinking more and more that the Internet can be a destructive influence on one's life. But it's all too easy to blame the Internet for many things without looking at society.

People's obsession with material possession is not the sign of a successful society but a failed one. We may be better off than ever before financially and materially, supposedly, but we are in fact a dysfunctional and insecure society and governments do nothing about it.

[Agostinho]

I find people here who, frankly, lack any sense of sensitivity or humility and always find reason to abuse or wind up somebody else. Maybe I should just accept I won't ever be accepted by people here because of the arrogant cliques who have always had it in for me from day one.

Guess what- I have to tend to animals, put other people before myself, which is as close to a model citizen you can get.

One thing that nearly killed my enthusiasm for football in this country is this and other football forums where a horrendous culture exists. Which frankly I don't see elsewhere. So my own anger was always justified as long as certain people- and I'd love to call out their names- have it in for me here.

Nice little personal sounding board there. Not really sure why you quoted me though when you completely disregarded everything I said.

[David Votoupal]

Because I wanted to counter your contention about the character of most people in this community?

[Agostinho]

Because I wanted to counter your contention about the character of most people in this community?

What, my contention that not every single person on this forum lacks humility and decency? That there are some people who aren't materialistic, egocentric and individualistic to the point of nihilism?

I'm not so arrogant that I think you should agree with everything I say - but my point was that you can't taint everyone on here with the same brush.

Having said that, I find many people on here to be intelligent, articulate, compassionate people. Not all obviously, but then you can't always taint everyone with the same brush.

[blahblah]

At what point has Australia not been a multicultural society? Perhaps when the very first Aborigines arrived however once other tribes with other languages arrived/developed that was over. I can't speak for other countries however there has always been a multi-ethnic component in Australia.

[David Votoupal]

What, my contention that not every single person on this forum lacks humility and decency? That there are some people who aren't materialistic, egocentric and individualistic to the point of nihilism?

I'm not so arrogant that I think you should agree with everything I say - but my point was that you can't taint everyone on here with the same brush.

Then why have I so often been singled out by certain people on a consistent basis? Is it any wonder why I think love and forgiveness are overrated sometimes?

I could tell you more of what I think and would want to do, but guess what, that'd be stepping over the line. And I love that!

That's because I've NEVER been given an apology from the culprits who've been against me from the start. Until Jamie and the other wind-up merchants do I will not let go.