Gamba Osaka v Melbourne Victory

[andyj]

I've been saying it all along, it comes as no surprise. For people to get their hopes up for an Australian team in the Champions League is just blind faith.

2008....I guess blind faith can go a long way.

[shinAUFC]

LOL @ every excuse being used by vicotry fans.

I cant believe im hearing "oh but they spend million more on squads then us" .

Good aleague clubs CAN go far in ACL, but they need to be smart enough to adapt and play a different style AU have proved this time and again

[Steelinho]

I've been saying it all along, it comes as no surprise. For people to get their hopes up for an Australian team in the Champions League is just blind faith.

2008....I guess blind faith can go a long way.

Yes, but I was talking about this year, these two teams that are currently in the tournament.

[andyj]

I've been saying it all along, it comes as no surprise. For people to get their hopes up for an Australian team in the Champions League is just blind faith.

2008....I guess blind faith can go a long way.

Yes, but I was talking about this year, these two teams that are currently in the tournament.

ahh I see, yeah, fair enough.

I do think Sydney have a better chance to make it out of the group phase though.

[Steelinho]

What makes you think that?

They've got a better chance of finishing last than making it out.

[Agostinho]

I cant believe im hearing "oh but they spend million more on squads then us".

It's a fair enough argument - when you consider the players that they've spent millions on. Lots of money doesn't always translate into a great team - but Gamba's millions are spent on players like Endo, Futugawa & Lee Keun-Ho - and a coach like Nishino.

They're a cut above.

That's not to say Melbourne can't beat some of the other teams (or even Gamba on their day - they really took it to them at Etihad a few years ago), but they need to sort their tactics out quick smart - and they also need a lot of luck (which we certainly had in 2008).

[Steelinho]

It's a fair enough argument - when you consider the players that they've spent millions on. Lots of money doesn't always translate into a great team - but Gamba's millions are spent on players like Endo, Futugawa & Lee Keun-Ho - and a coach like Nishino.

They're a cut above.

Oh God, this argument is older than my underwear. And a complete fallacy.

Do you have any records of how much any of those players earn? Most of them aren't on that much, if hardly any more than their A-League counterparts. Clubs cannot spend more than their revenue allows and a large amount of Gamba's players have come through the youth system.

Yeah, there's no salary cap as such like we have in the A-League (which doesn't even matter when we hit the Champions League, Sydney's squad being proof of that), but financial restrictions are still in tact, not to mention regulations and restrictions on each players' contract. There's no marquee rule like we have here, either.
No clubs other than Australia's have purchased players solely for use in the Champions League. They instead promote youth players and build the experience that we seem in those teams we face.


The whole money thing has been thrown around incorrectly by Australian publications purely to promote these games as some kind of David vs. Goliath battle and to soften the blow if a team happens to lose 5-0, 6-0 or 5-1 in a game (all of which have happened, two of them to Victory; HAH!), where in reality it's nothing more than Experience + Growth (many clubs in East Asia) vs. Inexperience + Youth (A-League).


EDIT: It may be bred from naivety, but it's also really disrespectful to the hard work that these clubs put into producing these talents in the first place. They've been working on this for the last 15-20 years, now. It's time we showed some respect.

[David Votoupal]

Futagawa is a Gamba product, Endo has been there for a decade. Japanese clubs have an exemplary track record of raising countless players through their system, taught to play a certain way, etc. Same can be said for the Koreans, Uzbeks and even the Arab teams.

[Agostinho]

Do you have any records of how much any of those players earn? Most of them aren't on that much, if hardly any more than their A-League counterparts. Clubs cannot spend more than their revenue allows and a large amount of Gamba's players have come through the youth system.

In 2009, the average budgeted personnel expenses of J1 clubs was 1,554m Yen (or $18.8m)
405m of this on foreign players ($4.8m)
781m on Japanese players ($9.4m)
368m on coaches etc ($4.5m)

That's a fair bit more than their A-League counterparts.

EDIT: It may be bred from naivety, but it's also really disrespectful to the hard work that these clubs put into producing these talents in the first place. They've been working on this for the last 15-20 years, now. It's time we showed some respect.

How many of Gamba's starting XI last night came through their own youth system? I count Shimohira, Futugawa and Usami.

[Steelinho]

Okay, so where are those numbers from? Because they're pretty ridiculous and don't break down a lot of things. It actually looks like it's broken down like that ON PURPOSE to make it something it isn't.


Things like the fact that each club essentially runs AT LEAST five different clubs; senior, reserve (Satellite) and three youth teams. Then we go into other things like club clinics, academy projects (i.e. overseas clinics) and even womens sides. Each of these require the personnel included in those figures.

Japanese first teams are around 30 players, which also causes the figures to seem a little more inflated when compared to player restrictions in the A-League. Also, the salary cap here only accommodates 20 of the players in our cap; the other three fall outside of that umbrella. A youth marquee here is paid up to three times more than any J. Leaguer that would fit that requirement. They would be paid about as much as Robbie Kruse, if not less, actually. The "salary cap" (so to speak) in Japan falls on EVERY player, regardless of stature.

The whole foreigner thing is a really tricky thing to explain, because it involves things like loan deals and all these other annoying things that blow those figures way out of proportion. Basically, none of the foreigners in the J. League earn a million or more, and none of Gamba's are even near that figure. Guaranteed. And Lee Keun-Ho is paid an A-League salary, anyway. He's not very highly regarded/utilised in his own side.

Player sponsorships and whatnot are a completely different kettle of fish, but we can't complain about that, because even we have clubs in the A-League that do the same in order to pay more money outside of the cap (Sydney, for example).



I perhaps could have elaborated my point a bit more. The reason these clubs have so many good talents is because the leagues (what I meant by 'these clubs,' as in those in Asia) are producing them, working hard to ensure the future of their club and the nation.

They have limitations to their spending, as do we. Players in the A-League are resigned to the fact that they'll only earn so much here, but they still play here, so why complain? Players in Asia have just as many ambitions to play overseas as we do and are actually happier to see them follow those dreams than us, as we tend to want to clamp them down instead of working on building our reputations and developing more and better players capable of overtaking those already playing.

They don't have a Robbie Fowler or a Dwight Yorke or a Jason Culina BECAUSE of the financial and contractual restrictions put on clubs and players and because they don't actually spend "millions on players." We do, we're given that comfort. If anything, WE'RE the ones who spend millions on a player to have that edge.

Instead of using money as an excuse, we should be looking at how they operate and say, "What can we learn?"

If we lose against a team, so be it. But complaining like that is like saying, "He worked harder throughout his career and now drives a Ferrari, while I'm still stuck in my Daihatsu. It's just not fair!"

[Steelinho]

... I went a little overboard. Oops.


EDIT: I'm going more overboard!

Montedio Yamagata last year spent less IN TOTAL (all running costs) than our A-League salary cap alone, which restricts itself to spending on just 20 players in a team. They beat Gamba Osaka 2-1 at home and lost only 1-0 away. And they've now been in J1 two years straight, going on their third year.

We have absolutely no excuses and no reason to complain.

[Agostinho]

Okay, so where are those numbers from? Because they're pretty ridiculous and don't break down a lot of things. It actually looks like it's broken down like that ON PURPOSE to make it something it isn't.

They're from the J-League official website.
http://www.j-league.or.jp/eng/data/2010/03-13.pdf

Things like the fact that each club essentially runs AT LEAST five different clubs; senior, reserve (Satellite) and three youth teams. Then we go into other things like club clinics, academy projects (i.e. overseas clinics) and even womens sides. Each of these require the personnel included in those figures.

Yeah, but as you pointed out in your previous post there are regulations on individual contracts (ie a professional 'A' contract has a minimum salary of Y4.8m; a 'B' contract has a maximum of Y4.8m etc). And each squad is limited to 25 'A' contracted players (with a minimum of 15, and 2 extras for clubs participating in the ACL). So that would mean that aside from the best 25 players in the squad - the most the club could pay each other player in their setup would be the Y4.8m - which is less than 40k I believe. So those quoted amounts in the link I posted would be pretty much limited to the first team. And you mention youth teams, but they're amateurs in Japan are they not?

Japanese first teams are around 30 players, which also causes the figures to seem a little more inflated when compared to player restrictions in the A-League. Also, the salary cap here only accommodates 20 of the players in our cap; the other three fall outside of that umbrella. A youth marquee here is paid up to three times more than any J. Leaguer that would fit that requirement. They would be paid about as much as Robbie Kruse, if not less, actually. The "salary cap" (so to speak) in Japan falls on EVERY player, regardless of stature.

It's true about the squad sizes somewhat distorting the figures (and also the marquee issue) but we're not talking about rounding to the nearest decimal here - we're talking millions of dollars more at play in Japan.

The whole foreigner thing is a really tricky thing to explain, because it involves things like loan deals and all these other annoying things that blow those figures way out of proportion. Basically, none of the foreigners in the J. League earn a million or more, and none of Gamba's are even near that figure. Guaranteed. And Lee Keun-Ho is paid an A-League salary, anyway. He's not very highly regarded/utilised in his own side.

Well, whatever. The data I've presented from the official J-League site suggests otherwise. If you have other information which refutes that then all good.

I perhaps could have elaborated my point a bit more. The reason these clubs have so many good talents is because the leagues (what I meant by 'these clubs,' as in those in Asia) are producing them, working hard to ensure the future of their club and the nation.

No doubt about that mate. I'm certainly not arguing that point - but the existing foreigner rules ensure that teams are using predominantly players from within their own countries anyway. It's not preventing them however from paying them significant enough salaries to keep them playing in Japan. Sure, plenty of players will still go overseas - but there seems to be enough insentive to keep them at home. No doubt the quality of the competition probably plays a part in that too amongst other things.

[Agostinho]

I had other things to write, but the forum doesn't seem to handle very well posts that long! Anyway.

[lufcmike]

Laugh.... I thought my trouser would never dry

5 freakin 1

Love their work those boys from Osaka

[shinAUFC]

I cant believe im hearing "oh but they spend million more on squads then us".

It's a fair enough argument - when you consider the players that they've spent millions on. Lots of money doesn't always translate into a great team - but Gamba's millions are spent on players like Endo, Futugawa & Lee Keun-Ho - and a coach like Nishino.

They're a cut above.

That's not to say Melbourne can't beat some of the other teams (or even Gamba on their day - they really took it to them at Etihad a few years ago), but they need to sort their tactics out quick smart - and they also need a lot of luck (which we certainly had in 2008).

It is however when AU were beating these big clubs on a regular basis i never heard them say "wow they are on such bigger money then AU yet AU beat them".. instead they just complained we had an easier group.

Comparing salaries is not always accurate though.

Much of the money in the J-league is a representation of how popular the sport is and how much these clubs make.

Suppose J-league clubs had half the income due to not as many sponsors, fans etc these same players (for the most part) would still be in japan just with half the salary size.

Sure a few more players may be lured overseas also but most would remain.

Same goes in Australia, if the league was making double or triple the money it is now then players salary would also, inturn the same players would just be paid more and yes... it would attract more overseas aussies home but we dont exactly has a truckload to go around .

Every country has its own "football economy" so to speak and you need to take that into account also.

So lets face it, the reason why the J-league is so strong is not becuase they have more money to pay their player, but because they have fantastic depth. Though you could argue alot of cash has been spend on academies i guess also