Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby RedRebel Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:46 pm

I only just watched the highlights of the newy game just then.

I did see a replay of the penalty decision the other day and I've followed the fallout since then.

I'm not sure amid all the controversy if the first goal received any scrutiny but Nabbout was offside! By meters!! AU protested it but it stood. Why did VAR not look at this? Both Newy's goals came about in dodgy circumstances.

This is all just so, so poor.
The ball was played forward by the defender, it was a fair goal
Oh.

My bad.

As you were.
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby shinAUFC Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:43 pm

For me we should only use var for goal line and when a goal is scored to review if a player is offside THATS IT!

The referees style, patients and discretion has always been apart of the game in the same way weather conditions are slightly different. Football is a free flowing nuanced game.

Giving VAR over reaching power leaves too many chiefs directing players and ultimately ends up very confusing for players on the pitch.

During the socceroos hunduras game the ref went off injured and players spoke about how tricky it is to play to a ref who has come in cold late in the game as every nuanced instruction from the ref is out the window. VAR creates this every game imo
Ppl who slap the label of truth on the 1st thing they hear, do it out of ignorance, convenience or cant be bothered picking through a thin layer of falsehood to find the real truth, or possibly even another lie
The voice in our head is the final judge
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby sevengoals Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:30 pm

I'm with you Shin.

Goal line Technology and that's it.
I can live with human error, it's a part of life.
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby Ghost Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:01 pm

I strongly disagree that just because something is a matter of interpretation it should not be overturned if the basis for the interpretation is wrong.
Lucas explained he thought he saw Strain move his arm away from his body to intercept the ball. He thought he saw something and based his ruling on it being deliberate on something which the video proves did not happen. His interpretation was spot on, if Strain had moved his arm away from his body to intercept the ball it clearly would have been a penalty.
The VAR should be able to question the basis for the interpretation. KGJ should have been able to ask Lucas why he thought it was deliberate and then tell Lucas the reason he thought it was deliberate was wrong.
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby otto62 Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:18 pm

I strongly disagree that just because something is a matter of interpretation it should not be overturned if the basis for the interpretation is wrong.
Lucas explained he thought he saw Strain move his arm away from his body to intercept the ball. He thought he saw something and based his ruling on it being deliberate on something which the video proves did not happen. His interpretation was spot on, if Strain had moved his arm away from his body to intercept the ball it clearly would have been a penalty.
The VAR should be able to question the basis for the interpretation. KGJ should have been able to ask Lucas why he thought it was deliberate and then tell Lucas the reason he thought it was deliberate was wrong.
This is the exact thing I think we should avoid. Then you just get two refs ruling on the same event - both could look at it on the TV and come to different conclusions - who do you go with then? Leave the matters of interpretation to the on field ref.
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby Ghost Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:40 pm

I strongly disagree that just because something is a matter of interpretation it should not be overturned if the basis for the interpretation is wrong.
Lucas explained he thought he saw Strain move his arm away from his body to intercept the ball. He thought he saw something and based his ruling on it being deliberate on something which the video proves did not happen. His interpretation was spot on, if Strain had moved his arm away from his body to intercept the ball it clearly would have been a penalty.
The VAR should be able to question the basis for the interpretation. KGJ should have been able to ask Lucas why he thought it was deliberate and then tell Lucas the reason he thought it was deliberate was wrong.
This is the exact thing I think we should avoid. Then you just get two refs ruling on the same event - both could look at it on the TV and come to different conclusions - who do you go with then? Leave the matters of interpretation to the on field ref.
Totally disagree, one conclusion is based on the video, the FACTS of the situation, the other conclusion is based on the referee's mistaken view on what happened. They are not coming to a different interpretation of the same FACTS, they are coming to a different conclusion because the on field referee got his FACTS wrong and based his interpretation on something which can be easily proven not to have happened.
In the Strain handball I am not claiming Lucas got his interpretation wrong, he didn't, I am claiming he got his FACTS wrong.
Lucas said Strain moved his arm away from his body to intercept the ball.
The FACTS are Strain moved his arm behind his body to get it out of the path of the ball.
I don't know how anyone can watch the video and say Lucas got his FACTS correct.
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby 2UtdsDundeeAdel Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:04 pm

I'm with you Shin.

Goal line Technology and that's it.
I can live with human error, it's a part of life.
And without it, there would have been no Hand of God. Can you imagine that????
Errors are part of football, and I for one like it when Lampards goal is not given. :)
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby shinAUFC Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:17 pm

In many if the highest courts of the world there are multiple judges interpreting cases abd cannot agree on black and white rules.

Football is not black and white, its nuanced and quite often refs need to manage the occasion as much as they do the rule book.
Ppl who slap the label of truth on the 1st thing they hear, do it out of ignorance, convenience or cant be bothered picking through a thin layer of falsehood to find the real truth, or possibly even another lie
The voice in our head is the final judge
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby Stuckey Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:30 am

I strongly disagree that just because something is a matter of interpretation it should not be overturned if the basis for the interpretation is wrong.
Lucas explained he thought he saw Strain move his arm away from his body to intercept the ball. He thought he saw something and based his ruling on it being deliberate on something which the video proves did not happen. His interpretation was spot on, if Strain had moved his arm away from his body to intercept the ball it clearly would have been a penalty.
The VAR should be able to question the basis for the interpretation. KGJ should have been able to ask Lucas why he thought it was deliberate and then tell Lucas the reason he thought it was deliberate was wrong.
This is the exact thing I think we should avoid. Then you just get two refs ruling on the same event - both could look at it on the TV and come to different conclusions - who do you go with then? Leave the matters of interpretation to the on field ref.
Totally disagree, one conclusion is based on the video, the FACTS of the situation, the other conclusion is based on the referee's mistaken view on what happened. They are not coming to a different interpretation of the same FACTS, they are coming to a different conclusion because the on field referee got his FACTS wrong and based his interpretation on something which can be easily proven not to have happened.
In the Strain handball I am not claiming Lucas got his interpretation wrong, he didn't, I am claiming he got his FACTS wrong.
Lucas said Strain moved his arm away from his body to intercept the ball.
The FACTS are Strain moved his arm behind his body to get it out of the path of the ball.
I don't know how anyone can watch the video and say Lucas got his FACTS correct.
I agree, I'd rather see a system created where we find the truth to the situation. VAR doesn't do that. As its to find an "obvious error" it's created purely to back up the on field referee unless the referee has done something totally insane.
The problem is though how do you find a system that fixes errors on things like intended handballs or dives? To find the real truth on that in many cases we would need to know what the player was thinking to find the truth.
Football isn't like cricket or tennis where we're just looking at the lines the ball falls into.
There are a lot of decisions that can fall into those categories that the VAR could focus on like offsides and line ball decisions. But we still need the referee to make the decisions regarding player intent and physicality. Which is often going to be a debatable thing.
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby View From The Top Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:24 am

I know that this is going to be controversial and people won't agree but I have been thinking a lot lately about what is wrong with the game generally. Basically there is not much wrong with it except that it seems that too many games are decided by bad refereeing decisions, mistakes or cheating by players (diving for penalties, overacting to get opponents yellow carded or sent off). This obviously leads to lots of controversy and acrimony after games and has led, in my opinion, to the introduction of the VAR which is clearly not working.

But what is the root cause of these problems? In my opinion it is a combination of two things, the high stakes nature of many football matches and the low scores that are a product of the difficulty in scoring. Now it is obvious that the modern game with well drilled defences and sophisticated tactics have made scoring (unless you are blessed with the resources of a Barcelona or City Group) more difficult than when the game was invented. Add to that the trend for inferior teams to park the bus (a tactic favoured by gutless coaches protecting their reputations to the detriment of the game) and the chances of a result turning on a poor decision are increased.

Now how can this be addressed? I think it can be done easily without changing the laws of the game or digital intervention. Simply increase the size of the goals by, say 10 or 15 per cent. Scoring becomes easier, more goals are scored (making the game more attractive to casual spectators or the uninitiated), without goals becoming relatively pointless as in basketball of the AFL (I don't want to see games with 27-13 score lines, but less 1-0s and more 3-1s), and superior, attacking teams are rewarded. It is possible that poor teams may become more defensive, but they will concede more goals anyway, which will punish them for not having a crack.

Worth a thought?
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby aredshreds Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:19 am

i think this is a really interesting thought, i can imagine traditionalists getting very upset about it though. in attracting new casual supporters would we be potentially risking losing life long fans?
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby aredshreds Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:20 am

I know that this is going to be controversial and people won't agree but I have been thinking a lot lately about what is wrong with the game generally. Basically there is not much wrong with it except that it seems that too many games are decided by bad refereeing decisions, mistakes or cheating by players (diving for penalties, overacting to get opponents yellow carded or sent off). This obviously leads to lots of controversy and acrimony after games and has led, in my opinion, to the introduction of the VAR which is clearly not working.

But what is the root cause of these problems? In my opinion it is a combination of two things, the high stakes nature of many football matches and the low scores that are a product of the difficulty in scoring. Now it is obvious that the modern game with well drilled defences and sophisticated tactics have made scoring (unless you are blessed with the resources of a Barcelona or City Group) more difficult than when the game was invented. Add to that the trend for inferior teams to park the bus (a tactic favoured by gutless coaches protecting their reputations to the detriment of the game) and the chances of a result turning on a poor decision are increased.

Now how can this be addressed? I think it can be done easily without changing the laws of the game or digital intervention. Simply increase the size of the goals by, say 10 or 15 per cent. Scoring becomes easier, more goals are scored (making the game more attractive to casual spectators or the uninitiated), without goals becoming relatively pointless as in basketball of the AFL (I don't want to see games with 27-13 score lines, but less 1-0s and more 3-1s), and superior, attacking teams are rewarded. It is possible that poor teams may become more defensive, but they will concede more goals anyway, which will punish them for not having a crack.

Worth a thought?
i think this is a really interesting thought, i can imagine traditionalists getting very upset about it though. in attracting new casual supporters would we be potentially risking losing life long fans?
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby terry tibbs Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:18 am

Can't see a reason for any REF'S CALL.

This is supposed to be accurate. It seems the reason we're seeing a lot of the stupidity and confusion is to protect refs.

Penalty calls, offsides and goal line are all black and white. VAR should check and rule. Done, dusted and (reasonably) quick.

A REF'S CALL decision is trying to have it both ways, and in the interests of accuracy - ie the entire reason for introducing VAR - it doesn't have a place in this at all.

I have no issue with the human side of the game, and refs will get things wrong sometimes. With VAR done properly, there's no need for that. If IFAB and/or FIFA and/or FFA can't stomach seeing refs over-ruled, there's no place for this experiment at all.
I think there's definitely room for a REF's CALL - when the video is inconclusive - did it hit the arm or did it hit the chest, what if video doesn't show one way or the other - REF's CALL. Was it inside the penalty box or outside - it could be clear on video, but it could be so close that the VAR can't make a ruling one way or the other - REF's CALL. Was it offside or not, it could be so close that with the camera angle the VAR can't really tell for certain one way or the other - REF's CALL.

Once it's running smoothly and everyone knows exactly what's being ruled on, I'd mic the VAR.
So for example the Strain penalty would have been like this.
"Checking if it was inside the penalty area." .... "Inside the area."
"Checking if the ball went out of play." ... "Ball in play."
"Checking if there was offside." ... "No offside."
"Checking if the ball contacts the arm." ... "Result pending."
"Check other angle."
"Check close up."
"No penalty."

(Of course the stupid VAR could still have ruled: "Checking if ball contacts the arm." ... "Inconclusive." ... "Ref's Call.")

No reason for the on-field Ref to go to the sidelines.
No interpretation by the VAR about was it deliberate hand ball, or was it a foul that should result in a penalty, or should it be a yellow or a red - just the facts.
I really like most of that Otto. But I maintain if any tech is to get the most correct answer possible, we should defer to that. In your examples - an offside that's too close to call I would have checked by VAR, and if that ref couldn't determine (which in offsides, penalty box decisions isn't all that often its too close to call with a quick slo-mo) we have an agreed advantage rule - either for attacking (or less-likely defending) team.

REF'S CALL just doesn't sit easily with me. I'd rather get the best possible ruling from the tech available.

If that's not possible, we just scrap the experiment. It's all ref's call and all teams get good and bad calls. As for VAR, in the immortal words of Joey Tribbiani, the point is moo.
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby terry tibbs Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:21 am

And I just realised I used the phrase 'quick slo-mo'. Well done me. All those years of listening to Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy and oxymorons still sneak out sometimes!
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Re: Newcastle Jets v Adelaide United Match Day Jamboree!!!©

Postby shinAUFC Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:49 pm

Larger goals sounds similar to the jubilani or the idea of tweaking the offside rule in order to promote more goals.

My worry is the unintended changes to the game that a small tweak like this could bring about.

I think a hard stance over all confederations in regard to diving and dangerous tackles may help this. I dont mean by the refs but by MRPs with long and expensive sanctions for anti football actions
Ppl who slap the label of truth on the 1st thing they hear, do it out of ignorance, convenience or cant be bothered picking through a thin layer of falsehood to find the real truth, or possibly even another lie
The voice in our head is the final judge

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